战争迷雾

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主演:Robert McNamara

类型:电影地区:美国语言:英语年份:2003

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 剧照

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 剧情介绍

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  罗伯特•麦克纳马拉(Robert McNamara)是美国二战时期的战地指挥官、福特汽车公司第一位非福特家族的公司总裁,以及肯尼迪及约翰逊政府的国防部长。纪录片导演埃洛•莫里斯(Errol Morris)通过近24小时的采访,拍摄出纪录片《战争迷雾》,回顾了麦克纳马拉的一生,尤其他在二战中协助柯蒂斯•李梅将军对东京等67座日本城市进行毁灭性大规模火弹轰炸,帮助肯尼迪政府应对古巴导弹事件以及在肯尼迪总统遇刺前协商从越南撤兵的经过。莫里斯总结出来自麦克纳马拉的11条经验教训,对未来政府如何处理军事争端,如何防止毁灭性核战争的发生具有重要指导性意义。  本片获奥斯卡最佳纪录片奖和洛杉矶影评协会最佳纪录片奖。热播电视剧最新电影东方巨龙被诅咒的土地十字锁喉手哪吒1983湖杀令花瓣舞伦敦狼人逃学神探瘟神系列:蝼蛄战争中的爱

 长篇影评

 1 ) The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara

The documentary <the Fog of War> directed by Errol Morris represents us 11 lessons from Robert S. McNamara who was the former president of World Band, the first Ford Motor president who was not named after Ford and then the Secretary of Defense of the United States from Kennedy Period to Johnson Period. McNamara didn’t think that he was qualified for the position the Secretary of Defense at the end of 1960 when he was in Ford Motor Company, but Kennedy insisted that his background as the commander of World War II and his Pragmatism which was based on logical analysis make him the best person for this critical position. McNamara at that time didn’t know how much he would pay for his decision in the future.
  Realist or not?
  Just by watching McNamara’s earlier life through the film and no matter what he said later as an old man who was emotionally talking about his past as the Secretary of Defense also as a husband who deeply loved his wife, he is a realist.
  During World War II, it was McNamara that recommended the air force to bomb Japanese cities by using B-29, quickly weakening Japan for just one night. He has always been in accordance with General Curtis LeMay in this point. He repeated what LeMay said after a wingman died from attacking from 5,000 feet in resolute and decisive manner, “I sent him [the wingman] there. And I've been there, I know what it is. But, you lost one wingman, and we destroyed Tokyo.” (Morris 2003) As we learn from lesson 4 which is to maximize efficiency during the war. If one want to achieve something one must sacrifice some other things. Like McNamara said that killing is sometimes saving. In China, there is a adage which is “You cannot both get fish and a bear’s paw at the same time.” That means if you want to eat fish then you cannot eat other kind of meat dish. You can only choose one you like more. That’s totally realism. According to realism, survival is one of the three main principles. McNamara had chosen to survive so he only focused on defeating Japan as soon as possible.
  And in Cuban Missile Crisis it was the same. During the phone calling part, when Kennedy asked what to do with Cuba, he immediately claimed that they should make a striking plan to get ready to invade Cuba. He thought that the Cuban nuclear weapon was a big treat to America, and for the security of his country he need to defense first.
  Even though he made a mistake, when he talked about it he seemed not felt that guilty. So we are going into the most contradictory part, and here is when McNamara began to doubt about himself. Two destroyers of the United States reported that they had been attacked. Though no one was certain about the attacker, Johnson and McNamara did believe and assume it was done by Northern Vietnam as a test of their durability, which turned out later to be a mistake. As a response, McNamara formulated the bombing program “Rolling Thunder”. Even at that time when he talked about the mistake which was the blasting fuse of Vietnam War he still didn’t think that he should be sorry for that. He said “everyone makes mistakes” with his shoulder shrugging a little bit like it was something normal. Because at that time when he decided to hit back, all in his mind was that Vietnam was attacking United States and this was a danger to his country. He only wanted to face the reality and stop this kind of invasion. All he had to do was just to fight before things getting worse. It was all originated in the same perspective just as before, so why should he be sorry for that? Until then, we still can assert that McNamara was a realist. But what makes us question about this assertion is coming.
  In USA the Vietnam War can also be named as the McNamara War. But in the film, when 85-year-old McNamara was talking to 45-year-old McNamara, it seems that he was the backbone force in restricting the Military. And he highly praised in the Cuban Missile Crisis how President Kennedy focused on the main force of their enemy, making an agreement with the Soviet Union head Khrushchev as Tommy Thompson suggested, thus avoiding a devastating nuclear war. And McNamara still believes that if Kennedy had not been assassinated in 1963, the government of United States would in most cases withdraw troops from Vietnam in 1965, there wouldn’t be a 10 year long cruel Vietnam War.
  It was like he would rather get rid of his noble position just for stopping the war. And in fact he did so. But what about the “killing for saving” before?
  “In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil. ” This was from the Responsibility Theory in 1946 for introspecting about the World War II brought out by philosopher Reinhold Neibuhr. He thought that World War II was an American war of justice, even though they all violated the principle of not hitting the civilian. And American people must learn to accept this kind of moral idea. “We have certain ideals, certain responsibilities. Recognize that at times you will have to engage in evil—but minimize it.” (Morris 2003) And with the lesson 5 “Proportionality should be a guideline in war” McNamara at last concluded that if there had to be a war, it should be a war of justice just as what he thought of LeMay’s actions toward war were.
Justice is the relevant means of organizing social relations and their conflicting claims. The demands of justice exist paradoxically within the human heart. On the one hand, justice is imperfect. If humans pursue only justice then justice will inexorably fade out of existence and self-interest would take over. (Mark 231)
Even though McNamara was looking back to history just as Neibuhr
did, but all his experience pointed to the future, just to provide something
the young generations to refer to, to path way for the nuclear war in the future.
  His educational background made him a rational analyst in data and strategy of war. His job made him a realist. Even though he admitted that the war brought too much misery for the civilians, he insisted that in a great measure it was because of the president. He said that the war was too complex for people to understand. And as for the responsibility and the guilty, he didn’t say a word. Because from the point of realism, he didn’t do anything wrong. His only fault was that he realized too late that the Vietnam War was meaningless. He resigned not because of the death number. If the Vietnam War would lead to a meaningful result, he wouldn’t resign no matter how many people would sacrifice.
  If Secretary of Defense McNamara had been informed by Neo-liberalism, would it have been an effective way to avoid the need for his “eleven lessons”? My answer would be “No.”
  Neo-liberalists believe that in order to counterbalance the fear that results from the anarchical international system, it is imperative that states peacefully coexist and create political, economic, and social ties to one another through treaties, alliances, and membership of international organizations and institutions.
  “I'm not so naive or simplistic to believe we can eliminate war,” McNamara told Morris, “We're not going to change human nature anytime soon.” But he was not at all realism, because he was not blind at all. He could see through what he was doing and at the same time analyzing if he was doing the right and useful thing. So as Kennedy thought that he was a pragmatist.
  Realism can be problematic for pragmatists where realists fear pragmatism's relativism, pragmatists fear realism's authoritarianism. This combination of realism and pragmatism basically represented the Guiding Ideology of the Kennedy Government and the Military Doctrine of the Cold War. Just as McNamara said “I was in Cold War!”
  In the book <the best and the brightest> written by David Halberstam which discussed the causes of the Vietnam War, The diplomatic of the United States Democratic Party Chester Bowles once wrote in his diary that “The new government is lack of a firm belief about what is right and what is wrong.” He thought that even though this kind of pragmatism which mostly relied on the logical analysis and mathematical operation did got the right answer in the shortest time, once the country went into the situation of specific international dispute, without taking the basic moral perspective into consideration, the pragmatism always cause the government to make wrong decisions which could not last long. Such as the Bay of Pig Events in Cuba.
  As McNamara said, one of President Kennedy’s excellences was that he could introspect the logical reasoning and withdraw troops when it was necessary.
  In the film we can see many times Domino were pushed down one by one on the map of Southeast Asia to indicate that the Kennedy Government determined to defeat the communist force of Vietnam then to pin down the whole East Asia by armed force in the early 60s. The Government took the independence of Vietnam for granted all for the leading position in Military force and thought spread strategy when facing the Communism during the Cold War. It wasn’t until that 58,000 American soldiers, causing an Anti-War wave that the Government started to think about withdrawing troops. I don’t think that the 30,000 Vietnam deaths were under the moral norms of the Government.
  When McNamara talked about the bombing in Japan when assisting the General Curtis LeMay, being asked that if they should do this to Japanese civilian, the answer was a mater-of-course. Because if they hadn’t blown the willpower of Japanese Military thoroughly, it would have been the American soldiers that dying like Japanese.
  In the book < The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara> by James G. Blight and Janet M. Langd, they provided a group of data which was in the 19th century , the rate of civilian death was 10%, in the World War II, it was 50% but 75% in 20th , called “McNamara’s Century”.
  Nevertheless, all the wars in the world, no matter it was the 911 Event or the Gulf War, they all held the flags calling for freedom, for democracy. The Fog of War that McNamara said was that the modern war is becoming more and more complicated, more and more variable, and it was almost impossible for one not to make any mistake.
  But I think there is something deeper inside. And that’s why I don’t think the influence of Neo-realism would eliminate the need for his <11 lessons> because his way to survival made him to be responsible and loyal for what he was doing which was to win the war for the competing interests, which was the Elitism covered by the Justice.
  The two most common approaches, idealism and realism, and their offspring, Neo-liberalism and Neo-realism, are illustrated by two former Harvard professors and leaders in U.S. government, Henry Kissinger and Robert McNamara. For Kissinger, it’s not so much a question of universal moral principles; it is primarily a question of taking care of America’s national interests in a world compromised by human nature’s inherent pursuit of power.
If human nature is the problem, how to deal with it is the issue. The history of humanity’s attempts to do so does not give much cause for hope. We must admit that no method of taming human nature has yet been found. Albert Einstein famously said that it is easier to denature plutonium than to change human nature.
Just as what McNamara said at the end of the film, “There is a poem from T.S Eliot that I just love, ‘We shall not cease from exploring. And at the end of the exploration, we will return to where we started. And know the place for the first time. ’And that’s the sense where I’m beginning to be.”
What did he mean by return to where we started? Human nature I think. No matter what kind of perspective we stand for. We are human beings, even animals.
From the New Testament comes a relevant question: “Do you know where your fights and arguments come from?” The answer in the Apostle James’s words: “They come from the selfish desires that war within you. You want things, but you do not have them. So you are ready to kill and are jealous of other people, but you still cannot get what you want. So you argue and fight.” (James 4:1–2, New Century Version).

 2 ) 何为战争?

什么是战争?

没有一个人能够给出一个确定的答案。

通过The Fog of War, 我们或许能从Robert McNamara给予的十三个经验中,一瞥他对战争的理解。战争是复杂,多变,残酷的,就如同他亲口所说:

There‘s a wonder phrase: the for of war, it means that war is so complex it's beyond the ability of the human mind to comprehend all the variables.

事实正是如此。纵观人类历史,人类自相残杀过多少次?每次的理由又都是什么?我们或许通过研读历史,研究史料,能够分析出战争的成因。可是实际情况如何却是永远也无法分析出来的。因为,有时就连交战双方两国领导人,都并不知道自己究竟是为了什么而战。

越南战争就是如此。

McNamara在回忆越南战争的时候说到

We see incorretly or we see only half of the story at times. We see what we want to believe.

冷战时期,美国为了遏制亚洲红色势力,打算帮助南越攻打北越j。局势万分紧张一触即发。1964年8月4日,美国两艘驱逐舰j声称在东京湾遭受北越导弹袭击,最终使美国总统约翰逊下令攻击北越的几个目标,美国国会在1964年8月5日通过了《东京湾决议案》(Gulf Of Tonkin Resolution)授权约翰逊可采取一定必要措施击退对美国武装力量的任何武力进攻。

然而,后来美国发现,其实那一天他们的两艘驱逐舰并没有受到攻击。但是为时已晚,战争已经发生了。

McNamara回忆道:

We were wrong, but we had in our minds a mindset that led to that action. And it carried such heavy costs.

于是一场或许可以避免的战争就此爆发。因为人们,只看到了自己想看的。

还是越南战争。

在越战结束之后,McNamara曾经前往越南,与越南前首相探讨,如果当时两国之间没有爆发战争,结果会是如何?一探讨才发现,两国打得根本不是一场仗。

越南以为美国是为了取代法国在越南的殖民利益,把越南当成自己的殖民地,所以奋起抗战,誓要奋战至最后一人。

美国为什么要打越战?仅仅只是以为越南想要与俄罗斯以及亚洲的红色政权联合起来,与美国抗衡罢了。

也就是说,越南人是把这场战争放在民族独立的视角上看待的,而美国人则是吧这场战争放在冷战思维下看待的。

两国参与的其实完全不是同一场战争。

所以说 ,如果说古巴导弹危机的和平解决是因为能够通过敌人的视角看问题,那么越南战争则相反,是盲目,导致了一场完全不必要的战争。

这场纪录片,真真切切地让我感受到战争的无意义。我相信还有许多的战争,不仅是人民,甚至是两国的政府首脑也不知道为什么而打。中国面对各种国际争端,从来都是谴责。许多键盘侠认为中国没胆量。错了, 如果今天有人还敢侵略我们,中国绝对会誓死回击。可这些国际争端,能谈,难道一定要兵戎相见吗?

希望世界和平。

 3 ) Top-down examination of war from a huamnbeing‘s perspective

如果说Hearts and Minds 是bottom-up fashion ofexamining war,或者说从战争参与者的主观感受来探讨战争这一人类活动,这部片子就是top-down,自上而下的解释the complexity of war. Errol morris as a previous detective shows the power and beauty of interrogation when framing this documentary.至于影片的客观性,这种东西似乎从不存在

 4 ) 每位老人都是一本历史书,这是最精彩的一部之一

几十年的人生,亲身经历过的多多少少的大事/见闻。每位老人都能对过去的自己的一生有更多的时间去思考,总结。
而Robert McNamara的一生,确实是最精彩的人生之一。作为二战老兵,作为福特公司的首席策略顾问,和美国国防部长,加上最后退休后,作为世界银行的总裁,他所经历的一切的一切是我们常人所不能想像的。

顺便提醒一下,DVD的花絮里,附带了38分钟的访谈,也是一样的精彩,如果看DVDrip的,可能会错过这些。

 5 ) 十一個教訓

剛看完將米高摩亞的華氏911打低的紀錄片《the fog of war》。

其實是一套的訪問片,對像是麥拉拿馬。他是二次大戰期間,在美國空軍服役,參與過轟炸日本的任務;在古巴飛彈危機時擔任國防部長;更重要的是,作為當時的國防部長,他被認為是讓美國在越南泥足深陷的人。他將他在這些事件期間的經歷,重新說一次,總結了十一個教訓。

作為一個在近世重要戰爭的參與者,麥的口述甚為珍貴。幾個重要決定時刻他都清楚地描述出來。他對古巴飛彈危機的總結是:要同情(理解)敵人;理性不能救地球。他發現無論是他的總統甘迺迪、對手赫魯曉夫或是卡斯特羅,都其實理性得不得了。問題是情報的混亂,對對手的不理解,讓情況日漸混亂。至於越戰的升級,他將矛頭直指混亂的海軍情報及總統的倉促而剛愎的決定。

在描述的過程裏,他幾次提及戰爭的道德。他的報告影響了美軍空襲日本的策略,導致了至少一次在東京十萬平民的死亡;他國防部長任內有人使用橙劑這種惡名昭彰的化學品。他問:到底這些傷亡重要還是戰爭的勝利重要?他發現作為戰鬥人員,要是戰敗,無論出發點多好,都會變成戰犯;但他又不能無視這些損失。而到底長崎廣島的生命重要一點,還是可能出現在日本登陸戰的死傷重要一點?他似乎沒有答案,但他其中一個戰爭的教訓是:在做一件好事時,必須做一些壞事。

這片子是值得贏華氏九一一的。它的睿智和世故的論述方式,雖然觀眾是會對麥評論自己的說話會有所懷疑,但仍不失其當時人論當時事的風采。

 6 ) history class notes

McNamara's eleven lessons of war

1. Empathize with your enemy
2. Rationality will not save us
3. There's something beyond one's self
4. Maximize efficiency
5. Proportionality should be a guideline in war
6. Get the data
7. Belief and seeing are often both wrong
8. Be prepared to re-examine your reasoning
9. In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil
10. Never say never
11. You can't change human nature

 短评

这片子居然在电信宽带有线点播里而且加了中文字幕。开篇即介绍了马克纳马纳最重要的政治观点:文人领军和军队政治独立。电信的节目编辑你对党指挥枪有意见请直说吗.......

5分钟前
  • 吴政委家小地主
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战争是不道德的,超越理智层面的。因此谈论它的责任归属更超越了人类的能力。这才是逻辑...

9分钟前
  • Charles Rosen
  • 力荐

至少他是有资格上这十一堂课的.至少他是真诚的.摩尔的片在此片面前就像嗷嗷乱叫的跳梁小丑.

14分钟前
  • bayer04
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对这个历史陈述剧里面最喜欢的一个部分其实是my middle name is Strange

16分钟前
  • 酸奶兔
  • 还行

一句话对我印象比较深:人可以用理性解决绝大多数的问题,但是人的理性是有限的。虽然没有提出怎么解决理性有限这个问题,但是我想,还是得依靠人的道德,即在理性层面之上用道德审视行为的正确性。 片中还说,人性是无法改变的,但是我想说,战争只是少数人的决定,大多数人的人性并不像总统那样,如

17分钟前
  • LikeU创始人
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与《杀戮演绎》《沉默之像》中的行刑者们产生了巧妙的互文。PS:原来导演是此两部电影的制片...察看导演条目才发觉,个别段落有着极相似对话发生

18分钟前
  • Ada的B计划
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一切都不是那么的简单如历史里头所述

21分钟前
  • 悯笈
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越战逐步卷入的材料在《出类拔萃之辈》里基本都看过了,没太新鲜的。麦克纳马拉85岁思维还这么清晰,表达还这么流畅,倒是很令人羡慕。果然真正的精英都是在哪都闪闪发光的。

26分钟前
  • 希夷子
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访谈类纪录片的极致,十一个章节中间有多次时间点的跳跃也完全不觉得混乱。大概内容说白了就是:“战争很复杂,很多事情我们也事先不知道啦,知道了可能就不会死这么多人啦,让对方死很多人也是为了国家啦,没犯法的打仗时候哪有法律说不行,我是听总统的话办事啦。越战责任?总统的咯!”—甩锅侠

31分钟前
  • 米粒
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谁的冷战,谁的内战......

34分钟前
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不仅仅是越战

35分钟前
  • GiantJoy
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秒杀其他所有关于战争的纪录片

36分钟前
  • xqtsss
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I wish I had watched this one before my own documentarynproject about the Korean War. But now begin to understand more and more about Dr. Frost's comment: knowing it wouldn't have prevented anything from happening

40分钟前
  • 嘿哈
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从细节描述大事件 总是更详尽也更身临其近的

43分钟前
  • 裸吻鱼🍭
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从福特总裁到国防部长。把一家之言拍到极致。我惊异的是:国防部长与总统之间的电话录音入档了,并且是可以公开的档案。

44分钟前
  • paradiso
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极力推荐

46分钟前
  • Lee
  • 力荐

麦克纳马拉担任过福特汽车总裁、美国两届总统的国防部长、世界银行总裁。他也是越战的主要决策与执行人。哈佛背景使他更善于从结果数据来分析原因与调整策略。他直言战争给平民的伤害,也承认自己的立场导致了大量平民的死亡。对此他辩解为战争太复杂人类能力局限,而对于战争的责任和罪恶感不致一词。

47分钟前
  • JuneYale
  • 还行

这种衡水人,,只在乎自己曾经出现在多少rooms where it happens,,,Satan has his special project arranged for ya in the hell sweet hell 🤗

50分钟前
  • HHG🥱
  • 很差

国际政治专业必看。另外也是访谈式纪录片的典范

53分钟前
  • vacuity
  • 力荐

麦克纳马拉风起云涌的个人史与他在任期间同样风起云涌的美国与世界史盘旋交织,前十课所学到的一切都是为了最后一课的总结:“你无法改变人性”。

55分钟前
  • 托尼·王大拿
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